Passing The Torch

Ep. 18: Slow down and take a breath with The Mindful Frogman Jon Macaskill

• Martin Foster / Jon Macaskill • Season 1 • Episode 18

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Jon is a Navy SEAL Commander turned mindfulness and meditation teacher. He’s a Naval Academy graduate and has his masters in Operations Research from the Naval Postgraduate School. Jon has served in Iraq, Afghanistan, off the coast of Somalia, and in Panama. Jon brings mindfulness and meditation to high-performing teams to aid in dealing with stress, anxiety, and depression all while increasing focus, creativity, and productivity. 

Since ending his 24-year military career in June 2020, Jon is now dedicated to spreading the practices of meditation and mindfulness to help others live happier and more fulfilling lives. One of the way he accomplishes is through a podcast he co-hosts titled “Men Talking Mindfulness”.

SHOW NOTES:

  • Intro
  • Story behind the Chemistry Table Shirt
  • Getting Started with Men Talking Mindfulness AND what happens when you get a retired Navy SEAL commander and a hippie meditation teacher together to talk about mindfulness
  • How did Mindfulness enter Jon’s life, thoughts on the phrase Toxic Masculinity and the misuse of the term
  • If mindfulness and meditation came into Jon’s life earlier in his career, how differently it would have shaped him. Also, how fatherhood changed his mentality
  • Through all the trials and tribulations over the years, what Jon has learned about fear and anxiety
  • Tips for people that do not feel focused and are overwhelmed
  • Thoughts and beliefs Jon has changed his mind on over the years
  • When depicting an image of leadership, who or what comes to mind
  • Having compassion and helping you win as a leader
  • Vulnerability being more accepted as a strength
  • Who would play Jon in a movie and the celebrity he gets mistaken for
  • Jon's Billboard Leadership message
  • Funny story about The Rock

More info about the guest:
Connect with Jon on his LinkedIn
Email:  jon@mentalkingmindfulness.com
Website: https://macaskillconsulting.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mindfulfrogman/

Connect with Passing The Torch: Facebook and IG: @torchmartin

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Episode 52: Riley Tejcek – Mission of Empowerment and Endurance


Intro 00:00 – 02:08

Story behind the Chemistry Table Shirt
02:09 – 02:23 Jon Macaskill: Yeah, a buddy of mine created that and he sent me like 20 shirts and now I just rock them all the time. It's almost become part of my brand.

Getting Started with Men Talking Mindfulness AND what happens when you get a retired Navy SEAL commander and a hippie meditation teacher together to talk about mindfulness
02:24 – 06:00 Jon Macaskill: Yeah. It's funny, because about this time last year, I was with Will last year and I was like, man, what we're doing is starting to be kind of be a waste of time, but I'll backtrack before I get into that conversation. He has a decent following on Instagram and he and I were just always talking back and forth about mindfulness, about meditation. He was telling me about his journey. I was sharing mine and we were having about a once a month phone call and then I saw his following on Instagram and I was like, hey man, why don't we do something together to bring what we do to your following? So it honestly started with just literally two men talking about mindfulness with no structure whatsoever. It was just us shooting the bull about mindfulness on his Instagram live account. And you know, we would have like five people who watch it live and then we have like another three that may watch it later. It started as something very small because it was small, but it was still taking a lot of time. I was like, Will, unless we figure out some way to make this a little bit bigger than it is, I'm going to have to cut away from this because I just don't have the time. And right around that same time, we figured out how to rip content off of Instagram TV or Instagram live like actually rip the audio off. So we ripped that audio off and I was like, well, let's just throw it out there as a podcast, it's not professionally produced, it's not professionally recorded, it's just raw, uncut and unapologetic. And that became our saying, raw, uncut and unapologetic. And we're like, hey, let's just throw it out there. And it had a decent little following just to start, nothing formal and then we started getting a professional mic and then we started doing some professional video and we put up our sound panels around us to make the audio sound better. It just started growing and then people started reaching out to like, hey, we love what you're doing. And then since then, we've actually developed structure to what the show is going to be about. We've developed an outline to who we're going to bring on as guests and then we've created a following on the different social media platforms. It's starting to explode. It was never in my wildest dreams a plan to be a podcast host, but here we are. The whole premise of the show is what happens when you get a retired Navy SEAL commander and a hippie meditation teacher together to talk about mindfulness. And we really have no idea. I mean, the show, we have a framework for what each show will cover, but...you never know what the other person's going to say and then you kind of rip off that. So it's a lot of fun. We bring some great guests on and we're going to have, we're in season three right now. We're going to be bringing some really great guests on this season. So we're having a lot of fun with it .

How did Mindfulness enter Jon’s life, thoughts on the phrase Toxic Masculinity and the misuse of the term
06:02 – 13:53 Jon Macaskill: I will get to my philosophies here in a second. I love that you mentioned the toxic masculinity because that's something that Will and I talk about often. That term gets misused a lot and a lot of men take offense to that term. The term toxic masculinity does not mean masculinity is toxic. The term toxic masculinity means that if you are forcing masculinity on other people, then that's toxic. If you're forcing the preconceived notions, the society accepted notions of what masculinity is on other people, then that's being toxic. If you force anything on other people, that's toxic. If you force the perception that men shouldn't cry or that boys shouldn't cry, that's being toxic. If you are forcing the fact that men should drive big trucks and shoot guns, I love shooting guns. I used to drive a big truck. That's all well and good. Hey, good for you, more power to you. But that doesn't mean you need to force that on somebody else. And if they are not driving a big truck and they're not shooting guns or doing whatever, that doesn't make them not masculine and it doesn't make them lesser beings. So I just want to make sure I throw that out there. As far as the mindfulness aspect, how I personally got into it is kind of a long story, but I'll give you, as we were discussing before, we're both avid readers. And I like to start by getting kind of the reader's digest version of a book and then realizing whether or not I like it and then going after reading the full book later. So I'll give the reader's digest version of how I got to mindfulness. The long story short is, I, in the SEAL teams battled with stress, anxiety, survivor's guilt, moral injury from what I saw, what I did on the battlefield and the losses that I experienced along the way. And that survivor's guilt, depression, stress, anxiety, moral injury, all that manifested itself as anger. It manifested itself as sadness. It manifested itself as confusion and manifested itself as guilt and that caused me to have some very dark thoughts about whether or not I deserve to be here still, whether or not I should go on in life. I went and sought counseling and I was actually on medication for all that now at this point. And the medication had numbed things to a point, but it had numbed some of the enjoyment as well. So I went and saw a counselor who recommended. The fact that he recommended it to me was a godsend, but I didn't realize it at the time. I laughed at him, I was like, meditation, what? So like in my mind, I pursued. At this time I was in the SEALs about 15 years. Yeah, so I've been in for a while. It was definitely dealing with the stuff from decades or maybe a decade and a half ago and unpacking it. Anyway, this guy recommends it to me. I laugh at him. I'm thinking, Hey, look, I'm in this big, bad, hairy, scary frog man. Don't tell me about meditation, dude. And he's like, well, okay, if I had something that would improve your performance physically and mentally, if I had something that would improve your life, personally and professionally, if I could give that to you in a pill, would you take it? And as a type A personality, special operator, you're always looking for an edge, looking for an edge over the enemy on the battlefield, or you're looking for an edge over your buddy right next to you. And I was like, yeah, whatever that is, I would take that pill. And he's like, well, that same pill, quote unquote, is meditation. It will improve your life. It will improve your performance professionally and personally. It will improve your performance mentally and physically and so I went back and I started meditating with one of the apps that he had recommended. I downloaded a simple app called Insight Timer at the time. And a type A personality, I jumped right into an hour long meditation and failed about 30 seconds into it. Or at least I thought that I had failed. You can't fail at meditation. It's just what you perceive. And so I perceived that I was a failure and I went back and I was like, man, doc, I'm failing at this meditation stuff. It's not for me. He's like, well, that's like lining up at the starting line of a marathon without ever having run a step before you've got to work your way up to a longer meditation. Start small, start simple. So I went back, started small, started simple, worked my way up to three, five, 10 minute meditations. Simple breath work, nothing super in depth, nothing super emotional, just some simple breath work, much like I led you guys through when we all met a couple of weeks back. And it will, that started to have immediate effects. I started to feel the relaxation. I started to feel de-stressed and de-stressed, not distressed. All right. So I just want to make sure I emphasize that. So it helped, but then those effects would wear off. I would get in traffic, get cut off by some jerk, and then I would be back into the red. So this guy was like, look, the lasting effects come about two months in. Just like the gym, using another gym analogy, if you work out for two months, that's when you start to see the effects with your body. That's when you start to really feel the long lasting effects. And so I did that, I meditated for another two months or so, and that's when I started to have those long lasting effects. And right around the same time, I was starting to think about what I wanted to do when I left the military. And I had buddies coming up to me asking me what I was doing differently because they saw the positive sides in me and what I was doing. And I was starting to teach them about meditation. And then the light bulb kind of went off. I was like, I can do this for a living and help people attain kind of the sense of fulfillment and that sense of peace that I have. I'm certainly not always fulfilled. I'm certainly not always at a sense of peace, but when I do meditate and when I live mindfully, it allows me to bring everything down and settle down and be in that sense of peace and be in that sense of fulfillment in the here and now. And that's what I want for others. So that's how I got to it. And then as far as the show, Men Talking Mindfulness, Will and I got introduced by a mutual friend, former Army captain, West Point grad. I won't hold that against him, but West Point grad guy. And then Will and I have hit it off ever since. So yeah, here we are.

If mindfulness and meditation came into Jon’s life earlier in his career, how differently it would have shaped him. Also, how fatherhood changed his mentality
13:55 – 17:39 Jon Macaskill: Yeah, great question, Martin. Honestly, I wish all the time that I've been introduced to these at a much younger age. One, so that I could handle what I saw on the battlefield, the loss that I had, that I was dealt, I guess, for lack of a better term right now, on the battlefield. And then also so that I could be a more compassionate, more effective leader. I think when I was, when I was young, 22, you know, even, even probably all the way up to 30 or so, I was kind of a go-getter type A personality, always seeing, looking towards the next mission, next goal, and what can we do to achieve that goal personally and as a team and putting everything else aside…Saying, you know what, okay, you have a family, whatever. I don't care about your family. We're marching towards this goal. I didn't ever say I don't care about your family, but in the back of my mind, in the back of my mind, there was a little piece of that. And...When I was younger than I am now, I'm 44 now. I've got a four year old daughter, a two year old son and a nine week old daughter. So the mentality that I have now has changed both because of mindfulness and meditation, but also because I'm a father. And I think back when I was a single guy in the military and then a married man, but not a father. I was married previously and since divorced. I think mindfulness would have made me a better husband to my first wife, would have made me more compassionate leader in the teams, the SEAL teams, and just in society. I think when I saw other men who had kids at the time, I was like, hey, those kids weren't issued to you, so I'm not taking them into account with planning the mission and how long we're out of town for training or how long we're out of town on deployment, which I think was definitely a misstep on my part. But also, I mean, even further back, backing it all the way up into high school. I was an athlete in high school, ran track and cross country like eat, drink and breathe running and I think that if I had had mindfulness and meditation, it would allow me to see that there was more to life than that. One, and then two, it would have made me a better runner anyhow, even though I realized that there was more to life. I would have been better runner because my mind would have realized as I was running the event, Hey, there's, there's pain right now. Be with that pain, push past it and I think mindfulness meditation ultimately makes you just a better, more well-rounded person in just about anything you do, physically, mentally, spiritually, socially. So I wish that I had had it earlier.

Through all the trials and tribulations over the years, what Jon has learned about fear and anxiety
18:04 – 20:18 Jon Macaskill: Funny enough, I was talking about this very subject less than an hour ago. I think fear and anxiety, so much of fear and anxiety is thinking about the future, or even more specifically, imagining a future that doesn't exist yet, and may never exist. So, for instance, jumping out of an airplane, right? What's your fear or anxiety about jumping out of an airplane? The parachute is not going to open. And sure, that can happen, but you being anxious or you having fear about that is not going to change whether or not that parachute opens. And more often than not, a very high percentage, more often than not, that fear never is realized. That parachute opens, you land on the ground. I mean, obviously that's an analogy that could have been a reality, but that analogy can apply to anything. So much of the time we have a fear about failure and we end up not failing. We have an anxiety about missing something and we end up not missing it. We have this future mentality where we're constantly imagining what the future is going to be like. And no matter how much of a psychic you are, whatever the case may be, you can never get that future perfect. That future, one, the future will never be perfect in your mind. And two, what you imagine will never be exactly what the future's like. So I think fear and anxiety, we just need to realize that it is our imagination. Our imagination is what drives that fear and anxiety, whether it's jumping out of an airplane, you know, admitting your love for someone or whatever, you always have to realize it's mostly your imagination that's driving that.

Tips for people that do not feel focused and are overwhelmed
20:18 – 23:21 Jon Macaskill: Yeah, well, I mean, obviously as a mindfulness and meditation teacher, I'd be remiss if I didn't say start with some simple breath work. Focusing on that breath, quite literally focusing on the physical sensations of the breath, noticing that you are here and now and in the here and now, you are okay. Everything is okay. And by doing that, you can settle your mind. I'm big on analogies, so forgive me, but I always imagine that in the morning, first thing that happens, most of our alarms go off to wake us up out of bed. Most of our alarms are on our phones. We roll over, we turn that alarm off, and instantly we're getting fed information, literally from the second that we wake up we start getting fed information, notifications that we missed, emails that came in, social media, news media, we start getting fed all this. And in the analogy of the snow globe, that's that snow globe getting shaken up. And not only is that snow globe, excuse me, that snow globe getting shaken up, but if you can imagine that snow globe is having extra flakes injected into it every morning. So it gets more and more cloudy every day. Well, what mindfulness and meditation allow you to do is set that snow globe down, let the snowflakes that have just been shaken all over the place, settle to the bottom and let maybe four or five snowflakes just keep moving around. And now you can focus on those four or five snowflakes. Those are the things that you need to think about. Those are the things that you need to get done for the day. Those are the I love yous that you need to say, or the time that you need to spend with your family. Those are the snowflakes that really matter. And then as you go through the day, that snow globe gets shaken up again. Maybe if you don't have time to actually do a full meditation, you can just do a simple breath work. And that breath work again brings you into the here and now and it settles that snow globe again. And as you do that more and more often that snow globe becomes harder to shake and you stay more focused on what's truly important. So yeah, I would just say for someone who is potentially struggling with either thoughts about the past or ruminating about something that they screwed up yesterday or last week or last year, or anxiety about the future, either tomorrow, next year, whatever, just start with some simple breath work focusing literally on the physical sensations of breathing in, breathing out. Do that, notice how that changes how you feel. Start to do it more and more often. And the more often you do it, the better it's going to be for you.

Thoughts and beliefs Jon has changed his mind on over the years
23:28 – 25:57 Jon Macaskill: My beliefs on a lot of things. I still feel that my ideals and values are fairly well set in stone, but there's definitely some misunderstandings that I had and some beliefs. And I don't want to get political and take a misstep for either myself or you and your show. So I won't get into that, but I definitely...15 years ago, thought differently about a whole lot of things. Again, like I mentioned before, fatherhood, sure, I respected the fathers for being fathers, but I also wanted them to prioritize the mission and the military first. And there's times you have to, there are still as a father, you have to. But now as a father, I realized how hard that was. I realized, you know, back 10, 15, 20 years ago, I had this thought, and I forget who said it originally, but he who dies with the most toys wins. And that's certainly not what I believe now. I believe, you know, I don't need to make millions of dollars and have tons of toys. I want to share the wealth, both literal wealth and knowledge wealth with as many people as I can Yeah, I've changed my mind about a lot of things. And I'm sure that if you talk to me in five or 10 years, there will be some further enlightenment and wisdom that has further changed my mind. But again, I think the ideals and values that I held dear as a young man, primarily still hold dear. Commitment to hard work, honesty, integrity, faith, those things, I don't think those will ever change.

When depicting an image of leadership, who or what comes to mind
26:00 – 27:49 Jon Macaskill: There's a few things that popped to mind, and I think Dwight D. Eisenhower pops to mind both in his military leadership and then subsequently is as president, just the way that he cared about the country, but then also care deeply about each individual. I think that pops to mind as far as an actual person and then as far as a what Band of Brothers pops to mind, I think every single leader should be required to watch that entire series every year of their lives. And Dick Winters, his leadership throughout that entire series is phenomenal bar none. And there's ethical and moral dilemmas that he faces. And you can basically watch Band of Brothers and find the answer to whatever ethical or moral dilemma you may be facing. So, I think those are probably the two things. I guess three things really. One being real Dwight Eisenhower, Dwight D. Eisenhower, and then Dick Winters, and then the Band of Brothers series is phenomenal for leadership.

Having compassion and helping you win as a leader
29:24 – 30:47 Jon Macaskill: Yeah, exactly. You know, I think if you boil it down, even when ego gets in the way, there are even some very big ego personalities, they still have a level of compassion. And I think that's where a lot of leaders end up winning as leaders is having that compassion for their men and honestly, again, as we talked about in the session last month, having compassion for themselves. So, I mean, whether it's Bradley, whether it's Patton, whether it's MacArthur, whether it's Eisenhower, yeah, at some level, they still have compassion. And that's where those who don't lead well, I think that's where they go wrong, is they don't have that compassion for their fellow man or even themselves. So I think that's where the kind of the common thread. And then, you know, when I say compassion, I'm not talking weakness. I'm not talking that they're out there being soft. You can be strong and compassionate. That's where many of those men are perceived because they're strong as being non-compassionate or not showing any compassion and that's not true.

Vulnerability being more accepted as a strength
30:47 – 31:55 Jon Macaskill: Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm a huge Brene Brown fan. Vulnerability is strength. I mean, you know, she talks about when she sits down in my airplane, somebody asked her what she does. And she's like, Well, I talk about vulnerability and strength and somebody says, oh yeah, two separate ends of the spectrum and that's not at all the case. It takes a lot of strength to show vulnerability. It's easy to put on this shield or this fake cloak or fake mask and walk around as though you're not being vulnerable, that's easy. But eventually what it is you're dealing with is going to come back and bite you. So it's much more difficult to face it upfront and then not only face it upfront, but express the fact that you need help. And that takes strength, it takes courage. So my belief is 100% that vulnerability is strength.

Who would play Jon in a movie and the celebrity he gets mistaken for
31:55 – 34:25 Jon Macaskill: Title. That is, this is a great question, man. I love it. I have not been asked this, and I've been on a handful of podcasts and I've never been asked this. So movie title, maybe. Mindful Frogman, that's my handle on the various social media platforms, Mindful Frogman. And I think with what I do now and then what I used to do in the teams, I think that would make sense. And then I've been told this, though I don't really see it myself, that I don't know, I see you wagging your finger. Do you know who I'm going to go with? I look alike, somewhat anyway. How big of an actor are we talking? How popular anyway? Fairly popular action guy. I'm going to say, I could be wrong. I'm going to say Chris Pratt. Is it? Ooh, ooh, I like you, man. Guardians of the Galaxy Chris Pratt, right? The one where you stand there like this. Yeah. Yeah, not the Parks and Recreation Chris Pratt. I was not thinking Chris Pratt, but I think I prefer that. I was going to say Gerard Butler.

If Jon had a Giant Billboard with his picture and leadership message for everyone to see and read, what he would want that message would say
34:25 – 35:38 Jon Macaskill: Oh man. You've got some really great questions. I love it. Let's see, what would I want that to say? Yeah, something to the effect of maybe slow down and take a second, take a breath and notice what's around you. Something to that effect. It could play into the traffic. Then also like having compassion for those fellow drivers as human beings. So something to the effect of slow down and take in what's around you right now.

Where people can find Jon Macaskill
35:47 – 36:34 Yeah, yeah, right on. Thanks, Martin. Primarily, I'm prolific on LinkedIn. I am on other social medias. As I said before, a handle is mindful frog man on most other social media platforms. But you look me up on LinkedIn, that's where I spend most of my time. I believe that's the platform where you can share both professional and motivational stuff. Jon, J-O-N, McCaskill, M-A-C-A-S-K-I-L-L, but I'm sure Martin will put that in the links. And then, Men Talking Mindfulness, that's our podcast with me and Will Schneider, and then we have some great guests, and then sometimes it's just me and Will talking mindfulness, so look us up.

BONUS ? - Who would play Will in a movie and funny story about The Rock
36:36 - Jon Macaskill: Ooh, who would play Will? Ryan Gosling. The people get, you know, the rock and I mistake us all the time. So, yeah. Totally. So the rock, funny story about the rock. His cousin or nephew, I forget, was actually a seal and served at my first team and he looked a lot like him, but much smaller. And so we always used to mess with him and call him the pebble instead of the rock after this I'll look them up on social media and send you a picture and you'll see the likeness but it's pretty crazy.

More info about the guest:
Website: https://mentalkingmindfulness.com/  And https://macaskillconsulting.com/

Connect with Jon on his LinkedIn

Email on@mentalkingmindfulness.com

Books and People Mentioned:
Will Schneider
Dwight D. Eisenhower
Band of Brothers
Dick Winters
Brené Brown
Gerard Butler
Ryan Gosling
The Rock

Quotes:
“In the end, just three things matter: How well we have lived How well we have loved How well we have learned to let go”.- Jack Kornfield

People on this episode

Head Shot

Martin Foster

Host